I guess it had to come to an end at some point, but my previously mentioned quest for some good conversation over at the HVAC “America, Religion, Politics” area has terminated. One can only take so much being shot at and ridiculed. It’s a shame, because there are a couple really great people over there among the liars, name-callers and mean-spirited crypt-dwellers. As for the latter, their whole purpose was to shut me up so they could have their club to themselves and continue to bathe in their own propaganda, free from confrontation with the truth. So much for Freedom. So much for America. These are the same folk who call themselves “patriots” while shutting up anyone who doesn’t agree with them.
The suppositions and grand conclusions based on absolutely nothing were staggering. My initial home heating question asked over there was labelled a “front” for my posting on the political forum. I was called a liar when I posted anything clearly backed up with facts. In fact, the reaction to just about ANY post from the most obstinate of these folk was to just simply call me a LIAR and a CHEAT and a FRAUD. Rational conversation was not possible. I should have known better. There were several others who would post well thought-out posts regarding the nature of man, the perpetual state of fear the government wants to keep us in, and other interesting observations. The reaction to those posts? More ad-hominem attacks. It seems this is all this type of person has to offer. It’s really a shame, since it seems we as a nation are not going to move far in ANY direction if the reaction to any plea for civil discourse is to be yelled at, called names, and ridiculed. The agenda of the day is to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Anything else is labelled “propaganda,” which is funny, since they don’t have the ability to spot true propaganda when they actually see it.
What really put me over the edge though was a post about Mexicans, Blacks, and how “milk white Americans” need to “wake up” basically because we’re being taken over and soon they’ll be in your town! Wow!
It’s become clear to me that liberals in general are much more open to the fact that they may be wrong and are always looking for input from the other side and a discussion of real ideas and thoughts in order to get at the real truth, or the best way to solve a problem. They are always open in that previously held beliefs can be changed. On the other side, it seems that reason and openness are simply not the best way to attempt to get their point across. Their way is the sledgehammer — the O’Reillys, the Hannitys, the Limbaughs — my way is the right way, and yours is the wrong way, and I’m going to bully you, shut off your microphone, and yell at you until you see it my way.
Clinton was a perfect example of this. He would listen to everyone in the room to arrive at policy decisions or directions. After all, the more ideas the better, right? The folks on the bulletin board, however, and Neo-Cons in general, follow the doctrine of their leader, Bush, which is that you should go by gut feeling alone, and the only people who should be in the room talking things out should be people entirely loyal to you and your cause. No dissenters allowed. No fresh ideas allowed. How else did we end up recycling all the Reagan doctrines and philosophies, no matter how badly they failed and put the nation at enormous financial risk?
Time and again, this stubbornness in face of the truth and pure contempt for anyone who thought differently is what I saw on that forum, and after a while, it just makes you sick to your stomach, you know? Someone finally asked me, “Why bother? Why take the abuse? If they choose to remain ignorant and come out with attacks instead of debating the issues, why bother?” And you know what? He was right. So right.
Just the failure of Bush’s Social Security privatization scheme alone should be proof enough that people are finally starting to wake up and see what this administration really is — a bunch of crooks and liars.
I don’t need to waste my time reasoning with the wind.
Just for the humour of it Clinton didn’t know when he was having sex or not either. But then again no one was there to give him directions.
Your less than stellar performance on our website should be an indication to you that the lib agenda is full of pot holes. When you grow up you might consider changing sides.
“It?s become clear to me that liberals in general are much more open to the fact that they may be wrong and are always looking for input from the other side and a discussion of real ideas and thoughts in order to get at the real truth, or the best way to solve a problem.”
-I would say you are misinformed. Also misinformed about the “HVAC” board. There are many reasonable people that post. Possibly your approach needs some modification. “Liberals in general”? Give me a break. Yes, all Liberals are benevolent. “Real Truth”? Don’t you mean your truth?
…and to cut off anyone before they suggest it, I’m politically neutral. And, I post on that HVAC board all the time.
Don’t be a wuss. So a few rednecks called you names… like that’s never happened before… you turn tail and run home ?? Where is your conviction ,man ?? I guess your arguements were not as sound as you thought ; or perhaps your view is not the best choice .. It is a big world , with lots of different people and lots of ideas, no one gets it right , 100 % , everytime. May the Lord look over you .
There’s a difference between conviction and stupidity. Stupidity begins where conviction ends, and I obviously didn’t have the “conviction” to stand up and get shot at with EVERY reply I posted. Seriously, I just don’t know how they didn’t see that EVERY post of mine was shot down with pure emotional hatred rather than by any intellectual means. I don’t have to put myself through that.
It’s precisely because we liberals know we’re not always right that we look to engage the right with some good conversation. That way we can all help each other see the truth. Trouble is, as I have mentioned many times, give a conservative an inch and he thinks you have changed direction and now agree with EVERYTHING he says! Remember, there is no subtlety with you folks. Everything has to be black and white. It’s a given. And I think I finally learned that. I thought we could surely find some middle ground without getting into a name-calling pissing match. Unfortunately, it was made VERY clear to me that nothing of the sort was possible.
I have been blessed on so many levels in my life that I’m sure if there is a god, he IS watching over me already. May he look over YOU!
Please. Get a life. The moment I consider changing sides is the moment I will realize that I have become close-minded, afraid, paranoid, delusional, and numb to the concerns of my neighbors. Not something I aspire to to say the least.
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
You sure are different than those other guys. Got sucked right into that commentary. Nice convincing argument. Got anything more intelligent than that or are you done?
Ad Hominem, right? See, you are good at it too.
“As for the latter, their whole purpose was to shut me up so they could have their club to themselves and continue to bathe in their own propaganda, free from confrontation with the truth.”
“Anything else is labelled ?propaganda,? which is funny, since they don?t have the ability to spot true propaganda when they actually see it.”
To actually discern what propaganda is difficult. You seem to think it’s not agreeing with your position, or “truths” as you see them. Then, you say you are above it yet you are afraid of it.
Additionally, are these people the victims of propaganda in your eyes, or active promoters with awareness of intent? You seem to imply both.
What it comes down to in the US people with differing views can discuss things openly. You have the opportunity to look at opposing arguments and evaluate their merit. If you don’t like the reasoning, you can discard it.
“Time and again, this stubbornness in face of the truth and pure contempt for anyone who thought differently is what I saw on that forum,….”
Again, “ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!” comes to mind.
You might enlighten me as to which post you are referring.
Again, what are you referring to? I’d like you to show me where I called anyone any of the names I was called — “Idiot,” “moron,” “cheat,” “liar,” “fraud,” etc.
Just a little digging will reveal what is propaganda and what is not. Despite what you say, it’s not difficult. Jessica Lynch debunked the stories about her. Despite that, people accept the “propaganda” version. Bush was “selected” president according to Bush v. Gore — plain and simple, it’s right there in the decision — yet people believe the propaganda that the ballots were counted and Bush was elected. The propaganda prior to the ground scouring campaign in Tora Bora claimed that Al Qaeda had many “underground fortresses,” yet when the Northern Alliance went up there, they found nothing. The US went up there, they found nothing. The British said, “let us in there, we have more experience with these things,” and they found nothing. In fact, they also found that the bunker-busting bombs that had been dropped had done little to damage ACTUAL CAVES from the inside, so if there had been any “fortresses,” they would’ve still existed. The fortress story was just more propaganda. Very simple. It’s not my “position” as you say, it’s the pure and simple truth as reported by the US military, the UK military and the members of the Northern Alliance that went up there to check the whole thing out. Look it up. It’s well documented. Yet you’d rather believe the propaganda because if you didn’t, it would cause you to change your beliefs on the media and your whole personal outlook on the world. That’s scary stuff, and in a way I don’t blame you for wanting to accept the tales of propaganda instead. That’s OK.
ROB10 said:
Oh yeah, and before you start talking about agendas, you might want to get off America Online. They filter your news. Didn’t you know that? After all, they’re owned by Time Warner. Get on the REAL internet and then you might start knowing what you’re talking about.
I was commenting specifically on your commentary on this page. Hence, the use of quotation marks. Read your own rhetoric and maybe you will understand. Apparently you suffer the same “blindness” of your accusers.
Isn’t Ad Hominem a personal attack? You haven’t made personal attacks?
Look up Ad Hominem sometime. Or here’s a definition for you from http://www.dictionary.com:
So no, I have not made “ad hominem” attacks. In post after post, I appealed to people’s logic and reason. And time and time again, all the Neo-Cons over there could muster were “appealing to personal considerations rather than logic or reason.” We’re talking out and out name-calling and baiting (which I have detailed here). No doubt about it. And before you take any of my words from that site or this site out of context, please remember that I have posted links here to that site (which I do not visit anymore) so the whole public record is there. I stand by what I said 100%. You haven’t a leg to stand on.
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of “argument” has the following form:
1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A’s claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
…so I do understand Ad Hominem.
At any rate, so you understand I am discussing your summary on this web page, not at the HVAC web site. I don’t see much difference between you and them except that your nose is perched somewhat higher.
Sysint, I’d be more apt to submit that you “understand Ad Hominem” if you had not pulled YOUR ENTIRE COMMENT from here:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
This would be funny if it wasn’t so typical of you folk.
So, you can do a search. Brilliant. If you will note the definition is slightly different from your posted definition.
What is your point? Do you want to compare education level? Would you prefer I try to make you look like an idiot? I see, I am part of the “folk” now.
Just what folk?
Again you show you are no better than they are. Actually worse, as you are a snobbish elitist. Can’t be wrong, now can you? Apparently capable of crying about a situation and clearly unable to provide a persuasive argument that gets past simple initial criticism.
My point is that you do what all Neo-Cons do, especially the ones who try to shout everyone down with lies. You cut and paste, but only the parts you like. You know what it is? You “folks” hate to be wrong, and you hate us because we call you on it every single time.
My point is you’re a plagiarist: n : someone who uses another person’s words or ideas as if they were his own [syn: plagiarizer, plagiariser, literary pirate, pirate] (taken once again from http://www.dictionary.com). See? Even when I take a SIMPLE DEFINITION I even quote my sources.
My point is that you do what so many other right-wing extremists do when they haven’t a leg to stand on. They lie. Usually they lie by omission. You knew that if you lifted the entire definition with example from there that you would actually MAKE my point and disprove your own. So you conveniently left that part out.
Hannity does it every day. So does Limbaugh. Coulter is an expert at it.
You can deflect and try to lessen the fact that you plagiarized all you want. The thing is, you’ve been outed. And now you’re angry. It’s understandable. Where do you go from here? I don’t know. That’s something you’ll have to figure out for yourself.
My apology to you. I feel no need to explain, you wouldn’t accept it. When I go over everything you have ever written that I can find I’m sure you never copied out anything in haste.
Neo-con? Who said I was a Neo-Con? I don’t agree with the others views, only pointing out you are no different than they are. What cut and paste of views? What am I wrong about?
You are so full of yourself. My curiosity arose over the commentary of this site. Then I read your stuff and your just the same, just completely the other direction. You are ultra-Liberal and they are arch-conservative. (these are popular terms used by many.) Your as much a tool as they are.
The fact remains that you are incapble of presenting a persuasive argument towards them. In that you are a failure.
Been over there. Seems you picked just a couple of posts that would best make your view been seen. Why not tell the whole story? Or why not post the web site address so all can read for themselves?
Of course, you have the right to be biased on your own web site but then you are only fooling yourself.
Seems you’re late to the game. Go back one or two articles on this blog and you’ll see I did, actually, post the address of the forum, and welcomed anyone to check everything out.
I stand by what I said. I tried to converse and was greeted by outright attacks. End of story.